Everything the post mentions is 100% true and well-reasoned, especially with the inclusion of pledge/chroot/etc. for dropping privileges.
There's two diametrically opposed deployment mechanisms:
1) stack towers of glop on top of each other until you're running a simple `echo "hello world"` on top of a docker container inside a vm in a proxmox server as part of a k8s cluster under a hypervisor running on remote compute...
2) just run `bash -c 'echo "hello world"'` and front it with CGI (stateless, single binary, yada yada yada...)
Take a peek at https://github.com/Domain/bash.cgi ... not that i'm suggesting that 'bash over busybox using cgi-bin' is the "proper architecture", it's more trying to illustrate that the amount of code that holds you back from being nearly truly "frameworkless" is tiny and easy to reason about.
For some of the internal tooling I'm doing for work, I've been tending towards:
some-cmd [--json|--markdown] ...yet-more-args...
When you use the process and shell environment itself as a repl, you start trending towards `[--cgi-bin]` would "just" be another output type, and the ability (nay: foresight!) to ensure that your commands are independent, reproducible, and only depend on their input arguments leads you directly towards being runnable in both "hostile" (ie: firecracker vm / lambda-style) or very "comfortable" environments (ie: shell, debuggers, unit/integration tests).
Mirrors my experience, and it's funny you mention busybox: I just discovered busybox's ability to serve via `busybox httpd -p 9000 -h . -f -v` with a `cgi-bin` folder dropped in the current directory.
I already write Python services using Bottle that function both as a standalone server and as a CGI script, and I've been updating them to work with busybox's more constrained CGI environment (basically being able to handle the lack of .htaccess rewrite rules).
I definitely see a chance for simple deployment tools to make a resurgence as we create more one-off/disposable/personal software, and the low system requirements for something like busybox + lua stack are extremely minimal, which fits well with the current DDR4-is-good-enough zeitgeist. I'm running them on an old Raspberry Pi 2B and it's plenty performant for the ~10 people that access it regularly.
Event driven, fast, all the networking basics in place including http, mustache templates and encryption, light and small executable, very nice for embedded applications, signals and fd handling built-in, very easy to use…
Have used it very successfully for million-dollar projects, including some scientific applications running on limited-resource systems (512 megs of RAM) ..
Was very, very easy to add C functions to interface with the web front-end, libffi is great for this purpose, but its also very easy to extend as a standard, well-written Lua/C application ..
This is exactly the sort of thing I'm really interested in. I'm particularly excited about various takes on Lua+batteries, have looked into designing my own (C wrapper with bindings to networking, JSON, templating, and DB libraries), but found Redbean to be almost ideal so never got past overall design to dig into code.
Turbo looks fantastic, though! It's precisely the niche I was looking to have filled, so I'll build a prototype or two in it to see what I think. Very much appreciate the pointer!
You’re welcome - we share interests, I too am interested in the Lua+batteries approach to life - I’ve used Lua very successfully in many commercial projects, so I’m quite convinced of its power in spite of the warts and thorns that many newbies in the ways of Lua tend to whine about.
TurboLua is particularly great because it really integrates about all of the I/O mechanisms you could want in a network-centric application, plus it has a pretty nice runtime loop which is easy to hook into and coordinate properly with signal handlers and fd sets and things. Can’t beat it as a very quick way to do embedded stuff too - very easy to do gpio, signal handling, etc.
Good luck, if you have time to share your thoughts after an initial first-pass, I’d be happy to hear your perspective ..
For people who find interest in weird web applications, I have been working on a game project, in C++, where the client is compiled to WebAssembly with Emscripten, and the application server is also implemented in C++ (behind nginx).
This is from pre-AI era also. The game is Civ-like. Custom engine from scratch (including both the 3D stuff, and all the web handling also).
There's also methods of starting Rack applications directly form nginx via passenger[1]. Rack is the CGI like interface for ruby webapps: https://github.com/rack/rack
It easily allows for writing applications and middleware with a few lines of ruby.
A Go binary with CGO=0 and all templates/documents embedded gives you a better overall tooling and deployment experience. Put it in a scratch container for complete isolation.
SQLite can handle multiple concurrent requests if it's set to WAL mode. Reading is all non-blocking/concurrent but writing is still synchronous. You should also set the "busy timeout" or else your blocked writes will timeout immediately.
SQLite does allow write access from mulitple processes - file locks (fcntl) are used to ensure at any given moment only one of processes modifies the database (or WAL if WAL is enabled).
> There can only be a single writer at a time to an SQLite database. There can be multiple database connections open at the same time, and all of those database connections can write to the database file, but they have to take turns.
However, it can also be configured in WAL mode where the single writer is applying WALs while the applications append to the log.
Golang also makes it possible to serve a web site or service from a single binary. You can even avoid linking libc if you stick to core Go (CGO_ENABLED=0), and it comes with all the http and tls libraries you need to replace the traditional web server (nginx, apache, httpd) as well.
I love C and wrote some CGIs in C in the past but I don't love concurrent programming in C. While forking and execing can use shared read-only mmap on .text segments, the .bss and .data will need initialization and copying; there's unavoidable startup overhead that a threaded process avoids, and raw pthreads is kind of painful. If all you need to do is serve a low traffic site, CGI is fine.
My biggest worry would be how often the SQLite DB gets backed up because there's no way a C web server will be free of RCEs in today's world.
There is Boost in C++. It is very mature and honestly modern C++ has a lot of extremely powerful stdlib functionality and classes that will still be orders of magnitude more performant that the vast majority of the web app languages we use today. See https://www.boost.org/
"A modern web application typically puts a web server like nginx in front and reverse-proxies to an application server written in another language like Ruby, Python, Go, or Rust. That always felt a bit strange to me: you essentially have two web servers, and one of them is also responsible for your business logic." -- Is the fundamental difference here that the business-logic binary is not always running but gets spun out with each request? This looks like a relatively minor thing, to be honest.
As someone who works on C compilers, I find the obession with C language insane.
For any greenfield project, pick up C++ in lieu of C if you want a C language.
There is no runtime penalty for using C++ if you stick to plain structs and don't use virtual functions, but you get better static type safety, lvalue references, namespaces, etc. even if you don't use the OO features.
Even for virtual functions, the overhead is minimal that it is just noise.
C compilers themselves are written in C++ for the last 15 years. Oh, the irony!
I generally like "C-style C++", but I find it difficult to draw the line between C and C++. It's too easy to keep reaching into C++ for "just one more thing."
i also do that way, but i also have written my own webserver so i have no cgi interface. it serves files and provides "special" sites for the application written in. I use html and css as a frontend. nealy no js code in the html. Things i hate:
- applicatin status handling
- mixing html, css, js and c in one file
- having no web "widgets" - having to make them by myself
May have pre-dated you by a bit. Perl definitely took foot not long after but the earliest cgi-bin days were dominated by C before people got tired of fighting compilation for web apps.
IIRC the spec itself says it was built for C applications.
I was not thinking about vanilla C and CGI but I wrote my own modern web api server app in C++ (std+boost only) and I found it extremely pleasant experience. very reliable and little supply chain/dependency hell problematic too.
It’s for intranet business app so although it’s not yet production ready yet, definitively winning against many other modern approaches in web development in my consideration, and quite refreshing POC project.
came back to C/C++ for same reasons, no supply chain trouble, fits in my head, runs forever, ... here a playground for win32, using partially webview2, all batteries included, openai client , tts, stt, vpl, images, audio, video, ... comes with webview2 apps, settings (and encryption), config, rest server, ipc, testing, CLI11, postgres, installer, doc gen, modbus, OpenCV, daemon, computer use, agent memory, image tools, mcp server/client, experimental flow editor - what a fun and exciting times :) https://github.com/polymech-info/win32-boilerplate
I'm still in the middle of reading but I wanted to comment first that I had a pleasantly surprising experience a few years ago with CGI. I hadn't thought about CGI since I was a kid and I was tasked with adding a simple dynamic page to a server that had nothing running yet except apache. For whatever reason I though to try out CGI because of how simple the page was going to be, and yeah. Would recommend
I just got C FFI working in my LLVM based language last night so I'll need to take a look at playing around with BCHS :)
Early PHP (3 and 4) were the thin layer over the C libraries and were pretty fast and easy. it came about right when CGI was deprecated and it solved CGI's problems
A shame to hand code a project in C and then use AI to write a blog post.
It’s a cool project to test yourself but most of the benefits outlined would also apply to Go, Rust, etc, and then you also get memory safety thrown into the mix as well.
It has headers like AI blogposts, and features a lot of parallel structure like AI blogposts ("there's no <blank>. you <blank>"), but if you actually read it none of it reads like slop. To me anyway.
The standard string functionality is painful. I wrote my own string view and string builder that work with fixed size strings. No memory allocations, etc.
Decent, but a half measure. Meaning you still depend on a separate web server (httpd in this case) to actually push your sites over the wire. This limits you in terms of how expressive your web application can be (ie you cannot arbitrarily write HTTP headers or choose how to serve your clients), and in terms of performance.
A far better (and harder approach) is to actually write the whole stack yourself. Meaning the actual web application and web server are packaged from a single binary. You of course have a myriad options in how to actually implement this (the server loop can run as a separate coroutine/thread/process/etc), but overall the performance and expressiveness flexibility is limitless. On top of that you can actually get blazing fast performance compared to classical approaches.
I'd also advise everyone to avoid CGI at all costs. It's overhead is massive (new process every time, more or less) and _itself_ is a half measure since implementing a proper code hot loading/module system for servers is too much of a hassle (and standardizing it is hard). Nowadays you want to inline your server and then handle HTTP generation separately (however you'd like).
I can't read any of the text on that page other than the headings. Is that what makes it modern? I assume the stack mentioned in the blog post is vibe-slop as well.
I wanted to try my hands at a monochromatic website and chose two shades that were far enough apart to pass a AAA contrast rating for accessibility. I'll try to improve it soon.
My eyes aren't particularly bad, not at the point where I need glasses to read books, program or anything, but I'm at 160-170% zoom before it's comfortable to read. HN is the same... so it might just be me.
I still like writing web applications in PHP for many of the same reasons listed here - modern PHP anyways.
I shy away from frameworks unless I am building something that I expect a large team to work on, or I specifically need multiple complex features that don't make sense to maintain.
I've written a few applications for my own personal use or targeted at friends/family recently that have no third party dependencies other than Bootstrap, which I still like more than tailwind for anything that doesn't need to look like a marketing page.
"Every request spawns a fresh process" <- this is when I stopped reading to save some time for the latest news in AI. Apologies for an abrupt interrupt.
"Every request spawns a fresh process. Deploying a new version is replacing one file. That means no server restart and no downtime. New requests simply pick up the new binary."
I think that's why FastCGI exists. It is the equivalent of PHP's "Swoole" or "FrankenPHP" or "amphp" or Laravel's "octane", etc. Each process is long-lived and tries to clean up its state as much as possible between requests. Forking a new process can take around 8ms (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19005586)
When I was building https://github.com/Qbix/webserver in PHP, I was faced with forking a new process per request. I implemented fork-per-request at first, similar to PHP-FPM and then implemented the "FastCGI" approach of long-lived processes that clean up after each request. (Modern PHP has introspection so the engine can know what to clean up, before calling the php files to handle things.) However, some things are not really possible to completely reset in PHP, and you have to be careful with database connection pools, etc. Typically those are left open even by preforking processes like php-fpm.
Anyway, I ended up flipping it: use the "FastCGI" approach as a default, and if the original PHP code doesn't work (rare), then for that app, you can choose the regular CGI approach of forking a process per request. That way you get maximum speed by default, and manually opt into safety (this is an exception to my usual priorities).
PHP is actually quite fast. But I was also interested in transpiling it to C. So I built the transpiler at: https://ulanguage.org/playground ... used Claude to transform about 1000 PHP functions to their native equivalents, but if you use any of the others, it would hook into the Zend runtime and link with it. (There are some nuances with zvals and objects, and resources in previous PHP versions, but I managed to overcome them.) By the way, it also works with Node and Python FFI the same way.
You can basically now take PHP, Python or Javascript/Typescript code, and speed up the CPU-bound parts about 10-50x. A lot of that is because of string and JSON handling. Many web apps use strings and JSON a lot. So underneath, I had the compiler use "ropes" for the strings, and avoid concatenation. It also parallelizes the JSON encode and decode into code that can run on multiple cores at once, i.e. large JSON payloads are encoded and decoded in parallel. Those are just huge speedups.
Anyway... all of this is mostly focused on speed optimization, so you can solve the literally C100K problem (forget C10K) today, on a regular box. If you don't need speed or FastCGI, your approach is fast enough for the vast majority of applications.
PS: By the way, if you fork after your program already loaded the framework and initialized the configuration, then you can run a lot more workers, literally 10x-100x more of them, because Linux and Mac will share all the loaded memory between processes, and do Copy-On-Write only on dirty pages. And when your request is done, and the process exits, that custom memory is efficiently cleaned up by the OS. It is this feature that allowed me to finally get the best of both worlds... run all existing PHP code, that makes blocking I/O requests all over the place to the database, filesystem, network etc. while at the same time being able to handle 100,000 requests in flight at the same time! Swoole and FrankenPHP can't do that.
FastCGI sounds like a perfect fit for Tiger Style and Zig. You can avoid allocations completely if you set up a fixed size arena and reset it after each request.
Everything the post mentions is 100% true and well-reasoned, especially with the inclusion of pledge/chroot/etc. for dropping privileges.
There's two diametrically opposed deployment mechanisms:
1) stack towers of glop on top of each other until you're running a simple `echo "hello world"` on top of a docker container inside a vm in a proxmox server as part of a k8s cluster under a hypervisor running on remote compute...
2) just run `bash -c 'echo "hello world"'` and front it with CGI (stateless, single binary, yada yada yada...)
Take a peek at https://github.com/Domain/bash.cgi ... not that i'm suggesting that 'bash over busybox using cgi-bin' is the "proper architecture", it's more trying to illustrate that the amount of code that holds you back from being nearly truly "frameworkless" is tiny and easy to reason about.
For some of the internal tooling I'm doing for work, I've been tending towards:
When you use the process and shell environment itself as a repl, you start trending towards `[--cgi-bin]` would "just" be another output type, and the ability (nay: foresight!) to ensure that your commands are independent, reproducible, and only depend on their input arguments leads you directly towards being runnable in both "hostile" (ie: firecracker vm / lambda-style) or very "comfortable" environments (ie: shell, debuggers, unit/integration tests).I already write Python services using Bottle that function both as a standalone server and as a CGI script, and I've been updating them to work with busybox's more constrained CGI environment (basically being able to handle the lack of .htaccess rewrite rules).
I definitely see a chance for simple deployment tools to make a resurgence as we create more one-off/disposable/personal software, and the low system requirements for something like busybox + lua stack are extremely minimal, which fits well with the current DDR4-is-good-enough zeitgeist. I'm running them on an old Raspberry Pi 2B and it's plenty performant for the ~10 people that access it regularly.
https://turbo.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
Event driven, fast, all the networking basics in place including http, mustache templates and encryption, light and small executable, very nice for embedded applications, signals and fd handling built-in, very easy to use…
Have used it very successfully for million-dollar projects, including some scientific applications running on limited-resource systems (512 megs of RAM) ..
Was very, very easy to add C functions to interface with the web front-end, libffi is great for this purpose, but its also very easy to extend as a standard, well-written Lua/C application ..
Turbo looks fantastic, though! It's precisely the niche I was looking to have filled, so I'll build a prototype or two in it to see what I think. Very much appreciate the pointer!
TurboLua is particularly great because it really integrates about all of the I/O mechanisms you could want in a network-centric application, plus it has a pretty nice runtime loop which is easy to hook into and coordinate properly with signal handlers and fd sets and things. Can’t beat it as a very quick way to do embedded stuff too - very easy to do gpio, signal handling, etc.
Good luck, if you have time to share your thoughts after an initial first-pass, I’d be happy to hear your perspective ..
This is from pre-AI era also. The game is Civ-like. Custom engine from scratch (including both the 3D stuff, and all the web handling also).
Take a look: https://statebuilder.com/
I like this project for adding CGI to nginx: https://github.com/pjincz/nginx-cgi
There's also methods of starting Rack applications directly form nginx via passenger[1]. Rack is the CGI like interface for ruby webapps: https://github.com/rack/rack It easily allows for writing applications and middleware with a few lines of ruby.
[1]: https://www.phusionpassenger.com/documentation/Users%20guide...
The answer is: it does but via community plugins.
> Every request spawns a fresh process.
How does it work when multiple concurrent requests are possible? Does SQLite allow simultaneous write access from multiple processes?
> There can only be a single writer at a time to an SQLite database. There can be multiple database connections open at the same time, and all of those database connections can write to the database file, but they have to take turns.
However, it can also be configured in WAL mode where the single writer is applying WALs while the applications append to the log.
I love C and wrote some CGIs in C in the past but I don't love concurrent programming in C. While forking and execing can use shared read-only mmap on .text segments, the .bss and .data will need initialization and copying; there's unavoidable startup overhead that a threaded process avoids, and raw pthreads is kind of painful. If all you need to do is serve a low traffic site, CGI is fine.
My biggest worry would be how often the SQLite DB gets backed up because there's no way a C web server will be free of RCEs in today's world.
For any greenfield project, pick up C++ in lieu of C if you want a C language.
There is no runtime penalty for using C++ if you stick to plain structs and don't use virtual functions, but you get better static type safety, lvalue references, namespaces, etc. even if you don't use the OO features.
Even for virtual functions, the overhead is minimal that it is just noise.
C compilers themselves are written in C++ for the last 15 years. Oh, the irony!
Large portions of the standard lib depend on heap allocations. C is a much safer target for environments with limited resources.
That may be a me problem.
[0] - the other one: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50051573
I took the concept of "slots" in requests, from it: https://github.com/okws/okws
https://metacpan.org/pod/CGI
But the very first CGI scripts I wrote were in C, late 95 or early 96. Apache on Slackware Linux.
IIRC the spec itself says it was built for C applications.
mod-perl was a godsend, of course.
It’s for intranet business app so although it’s not yet production ready yet, definitively winning against many other modern approaches in web development in my consideration, and quite refreshing POC project.
https://github.com/codazoda/cgi-lib
I just got C FFI working in my LLVM based language last night so I'll need to take a look at playing around with BCHS :)
https://dhuan.github.io/mock/latest/examples.html
Early PHP (3 and 4) were the thin layer over the C libraries and were pretty fast and easy. it came about right when CGI was deprecated and it solved CGI's problems
It’s a cool project to test yourself but most of the benefits outlined would also apply to Go, Rust, etc, and then you also get memory safety thrown into the mix as well.
It has headers like AI blogposts, and features a lot of parallel structure like AI blogposts ("there's no <blank>. you <blank>"), but if you actually read it none of it reads like slop. To me anyway.
Um, any and all string handling in C is pretty miserable.
A far better (and harder approach) is to actually write the whole stack yourself. Meaning the actual web application and web server are packaged from a single binary. You of course have a myriad options in how to actually implement this (the server loop can run as a separate coroutine/thread/process/etc), but overall the performance and expressiveness flexibility is limitless. On top of that you can actually get blazing fast performance compared to classical approaches.
I'd also advise everyone to avoid CGI at all costs. It's overhead is massive (new process every time, more or less) and _itself_ is a half measure since implementing a proper code hot loading/module system for servers is too much of a hassle (and standardizing it is hard). Nowadays you want to inline your server and then handle HTTP generation separately (however you'd like).
I can't read any of the text on that page other than the headings. Is that what makes it modern? I assume the stack mentioned in the blog post is vibe-slop as well.
It was 100% human slopped :)
I shy away from frameworks unless I am building something that I expect a large team to work on, or I specifically need multiple complex features that don't make sense to maintain.
I've written a few applications for my own personal use or targeted at friends/family recently that have no third party dependencies other than Bootstrap, which I still like more than tailwind for anything that doesn't need to look like a marketing page.
I think that's why FastCGI exists. It is the equivalent of PHP's "Swoole" or "FrankenPHP" or "amphp" or Laravel's "octane", etc. Each process is long-lived and tries to clean up its state as much as possible between requests. Forking a new process can take around 8ms (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19005586)
When I was building https://github.com/Qbix/webserver in PHP, I was faced with forking a new process per request. I implemented fork-per-request at first, similar to PHP-FPM and then implemented the "FastCGI" approach of long-lived processes that clean up after each request. (Modern PHP has introspection so the engine can know what to clean up, before calling the php files to handle things.) However, some things are not really possible to completely reset in PHP, and you have to be careful with database connection pools, etc. Typically those are left open even by preforking processes like php-fpm.
Anyway, I ended up flipping it: use the "FastCGI" approach as a default, and if the original PHP code doesn't work (rare), then for that app, you can choose the regular CGI approach of forking a process per request. That way you get maximum speed by default, and manually opt into safety (this is an exception to my usual priorities).
PHP is actually quite fast. But I was also interested in transpiling it to C. So I built the transpiler at: https://ulanguage.org/playground ... used Claude to transform about 1000 PHP functions to their native equivalents, but if you use any of the others, it would hook into the Zend runtime and link with it. (There are some nuances with zvals and objects, and resources in previous PHP versions, but I managed to overcome them.) By the way, it also works with Node and Python FFI the same way.
You can basically now take PHP, Python or Javascript/Typescript code, and speed up the CPU-bound parts about 10-50x. A lot of that is because of string and JSON handling. Many web apps use strings and JSON a lot. So underneath, I had the compiler use "ropes" for the strings, and avoid concatenation. It also parallelizes the JSON encode and decode into code that can run on multiple cores at once, i.e. large JSON payloads are encoded and decoded in parallel. Those are just huge speedups.
Anyway... all of this is mostly focused on speed optimization, so you can solve the literally C100K problem (forget C10K) today, on a regular box. If you don't need speed or FastCGI, your approach is fast enough for the vast majority of applications.
PS: By the way, if you fork after your program already loaded the framework and initialized the configuration, then you can run a lot more workers, literally 10x-100x more of them, because Linux and Mac will share all the loaded memory between processes, and do Copy-On-Write only on dirty pages. And when your request is done, and the process exits, that custom memory is efficiently cleaned up by the OS. It is this feature that allowed me to finally get the best of both worlds... run all existing PHP code, that makes blocking I/O requests all over the place to the database, filesystem, network etc. while at the same time being able to handle 100,000 requests in flight at the same time! Swoole and FrankenPHP can't do that.
if not, you could have sent patches and have the best of both worlds
My goal for speed was to run all existing unmodified PHP code out there, but handle 10x as many requests and throughput
Well, and also a ton of other features too