Popping the GPU Bubble

(moondream.ai)

133 points | by radq 4 hours ago

7 comments

  • blueblazin 4 hours ago
    I really appreciate this type of articles. I feel like a lot of knowledge in LLM training and inference is locked inside the heads of practitioners. Similar to compiler engineers before.

    To work in LLM training/inference you’re expected to know this stuff but to know this stuff you need to be working in the space.

    • radq 3 hours ago
      Thank you for the kind words. We will write and share more of these.
    • someonebaggy 57 minutes ago
      Most industries are like that.
    • alfiedotwtf 36 minutes ago
      > Similar to compiler engineers before.

      I guess the difference here being that we have ample compiler literature and practically know 99% of all there is to know about compilers that exist in the wild vs this new field.

      Until we’ve gathered and agreed on a few “dragon books” for LLMs and have explored all there is to LLMs, you’re probably right - know-how will be with the practitioners and in source code until it’s distilled (pun intended).

      • Melatonic 29 minutes ago
        Better comparison would be low level code running on smaller chips. Intersection of hardware and software engineering
    • rjzzleep 3 hours ago
      Gentle reminder that while most money is spent on LLM inference, the vast majority of useful AI use is in fact not LLMs. Also, more and more work is poured into making small models. One thing I like about the whole export controls saga is that people are finding creative ways to squeeze performance out of these devices as witnessed in this post. But, if you then look at solutions like vLLM, vLLM will just fill whatever VRAM is available, no matter the context size, or the model size. So then you have two things to worry about:

      First, where do you know exactly what the optimal VRAM assignment per model, per context size is, which seems to be currently based purely on experience and second how do you make sure that only that amount is available to your infra/containers, which is being handled by DRA and stuff like https://project-hami.io

      While only tangentially related to the blog post here. The title is picked in such a way that I couldn't help, but put the shameless plug here. When he wrote popping the bubble, I thought we're talking about devices and reducing NVIDIA dependency, but this seems very focused on Cuda.

      Disclaimer: I work with Dynamia.ai, the founders of which created HAMi.

      • esperent 46 minutes ago
        > the vast majority of useful AI use is in fact not LLMs

        Can you explain what you mean here? Are you talking about small neural networks doing specific tasks?

  • augment_me 1 hour ago
    As someone who works in the field, the blog is nice but it has a lot of CODEX fingerprints on it, and it's also very specific to the size of the model in question in a way that is not explicit from the blog until the very last section.

    In general, for some reason CODEX loves CUDA-streams, it's the first optimization it goes for every time when writing GPU kernels. However in many cases this is not a bottleneck, it happens to be so here because the model in the blog is small (2.4ms FW-pass is tiny, and 9B params sit on a single GPU). Large models are closer to 30-40ms. The CPU-GPU sync is 1-2ms, when working on larger MoE models the scheduling of tokens in this way is much less important than for example scheduling of computation/communication or kernel optimization.

    I wish the blog would state this at the start with the premise of what has been done, or show that this is indeed the bottleneck with some benchmarking. Otherwise is kind of overselling things imo.

    • radq 1 hour ago
      Appreciate you saying the blog was nice. Not sure what you mean by "CODEX fingerprints", but I'll engage with the other points. We work on small models, and our customers want real-time inference on modern GPUs. The sub-title says "near-realtime VLM inference". 20-30ms forward passes are a non-starter for these workloads.

      If you scroll down to the section titled "A cost model for the bubble", you will find both benchmark results and us saying, "you get back anywhere from a few percent to a third; more the faster your accelerator/model is".

  • gardnr 4 hours ago
    Different bubble than the one I was hoping for.

    This appears to be different than the recent "Speculative Pipeline Decoding" paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2605.30852

  • nl 4 hours ago
    > you find that the GPU often sits idle, not for lack of work, but because the CPU hasn't told it what to do next yet. This phenomenon is called a GPU bubble.

    This is true, but I've never heard anyone refer to this as a GPU bubble before.

    I think most people hear "GPU bubble" and think of a financial bubble of some kind.

    • SCdF 4 hours ago
      It appears to be a real term? https://docs.vulkan.org/tutorial/latest/Synchronization/Asyn...

      Very odd, but perhaps more familiar to graphics programmers? I will say I'd probably call it a stall, which is exactly what the Vulkan docs call it moments later, so :shrug:

      • kibibu 3 hours ago
        "bubble" used to be used a lot more when talking about very deep pipelines, eg Pentium 4 depth.
        • tux3 1 hour ago
          Or in the case of my poor Verilog, even very short pipelines :(
          • alfiedotwtf 33 minutes ago
            And before that, graphics programmers called it vertical retrace :upsidedown:
    • spaqin 2 hours ago
      Pretty sure that would be "[GPU performance] bottlenecked [by the CPU]" in most common terms.
    • _zoltan_ 3 hours ago
      while the title is misreading, when reading GPU profiling data, we do call these bubbles - where the GPU _could_ do something, but it's idle.

      any time your GPU is idle = you are losing $$$ = your TCO is going up. you don't want that.

    • cma 4 hours ago
      It's very common to call it a GPU bubble in gamedev, though not strictly for CPU induced bubbles.
    • vkazanov 3 hours ago
      I saw it in literature on cpu pipelines in quotes, never without.
      • IshKebab 3 hours ago
        I've never seen it in quotes, but yeah it is a very common term in pipelined CPUs.
    • nnevatie 4 hours ago
      Yes, the title seems off - I also thought I am going to be reading about the AI/pricing bubble.
    • rusk 4 hours ago
      The term I would use would be “underutilised”
      • barries11 4 hours ago
        "stall" is the best term I can think of as in "pipeline stall".

        Better term, anyone?

        • _zoltan_ 3 hours ago
          it's not stalled, as that would imply that it waits for something, which is not necessarily the case with bubbles. most often it shows lack of proper pipelining or wrong pipeline dependencies (pipeline A waits for pipeline B, pipeline C waits for pipeline B, while pipeline B waits for an event X, now you've just made all three pipelines stalled on event X - not good).
        • rusk 2 hours ago
          When an engine stalls, the implication is that the chain reaction that drives it is failing - I don’t think that is the case with a GPU as it will quite happily sit there drawing watts til you give it things. In systems nomenclature the inverse term for bubble is utilisation. This or that link is or node is using x% of its capacity. Indeed, if you monitor your GPU with nvidia-smi you will see that very term in the instrumentation.
  • tjoekbezoer 1 hour ago
    Regarding the critique on the title: perhaps an analogy can be made to propeller cavitation on ships. Water influx rate, propeller design and operational parameters all influence the detrimental effect of water bubbles forming — deteriorating the system's efficiency.

    The GPU would be the propeller, the influx is the work, and the operational parameters is what this article's about.

  • Schlagbohrer 2 hours ago
    I love the brand name, Moondream
  • fragmede 1 hour ago
    That's a terrible name for that and I can't say that Hanlon's razor applies. Bubble that everyone's knowingly referring to is the stock market collapsing like in 2001. To choose a headline that can be mistaken for that just to get clicks is shit. You could've called it GPU-CPU pipeline stall, but no, you intentionally chose a name that would be confused for something else just to get clicks?
    • radq 1 hour ago
      This is what people in the field call it. I'm sorry you're offended.
      • fragmede 17 minutes ago
        You. You are people in the field. You can choose to name it anything else in the article that you just wrote. "We call it the GPU-CPU pipeline stall, but others might call it the GPU bubble."
    • cubefox 37 minutes ago
      Yeah the title is obviously clickbait.
      • dingdingdang 4 minutes ago
        Yeah, it works though, and the content is genuine enough which I guess trumps the issue with the title for me ;)